Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Comments (19)

1. Oh, I love it too. 😀

2. That’s one horribly written fanfic. I’m just going to guess you’ve never read the books and therefore don’t understand what exactly is horrible about it. Suffice it to say, those are not the characters from Harry Potter.

   1. Jonathan, some of us have read both the fanfic and the original and find the HPMR to be wonderful. People can modify characters. That’s ok. If it bothers you so much, think of it as not being fanfic but as some other category all its own.

      1. First, lest me preface this by saying I don’t like to get into nerd fights on the internet. Fighting on the internet is like competing in the special Olympics; even if you win, you’re still retarded. In that light I have a fairly strict rule about replying to posts online. I first wait at least one day after reading it. If I still feel the need to post, I have a full day of thought to bring to bear. I almost never reply. So the point of this preface is that, while I will almost certainly read any replies to this comment, I will most likely not reply to any.

         I have many problem with Harry Potter and The Methods of Rationality. However this format does not lend itself to length, so I will instead focus on the most critical problems with the story. Good fiction makes several requirements of a narrative. A fanfic must adhere to these rules, as well as several more requirements for good fan-fiction. Eli manages to violate virtually all of them.

         The first, and most glaring, problem with the story is that none of the characters are themselves. Harry, on several occasions lectures Prof. McGonagall about the proper course of action. This, in and of itself, isn’t problematic. The problem is, in the actual books, Harry & Co. actually do try to lecture Prof. McGonagall. The result is Prof. McGonagall shutting them down, hard. Her, instead, she patiently listens to Harry school her in the finer points of modern psychology. Eli still portrays Draco as a nominal racist. The problem is Eli, being a White, cis-gendered, middle-class, heterosexual male comes from a position of privilege. One of the main privileges afforded him is that he has never had to actually confront an actual racist. It shows. Not only do racists not abandon their prejudices when they are confronted with reason, they don’t even question them. Draco wouldn’t respond to Harry’s reasoned take down of Mugglism with anything other than open hostility. This was something Rowling portrayed really well in her books. Harry Potter is perhaps the most out-of-character character in the entire work. I understand that this is an alternate timeline fanfic. I don’t really want to get into a nature versus nurture debate either. But if you’re going to strip every personality trait from a character, what point is served by still calling him “Harry Potter”? Why not call him Eli?

         Harry’s personality was not merely different; he has become a Mary Sue. To start with, Harry Potter has been altered into a person not terribly different from the author. They have similar personalities. They have similar interests. They also share similar histories and life experiences. Furthermore, Harry’s actions always seem to be justified. His decisions always turn out well or only superficially bad. What’s more, when character’s personality would lead to conflict and a negative resolution for Harry, their personalities are altered to allow Harry a positive outcome. The end result is a lack of drama and tension in the story as Harry sails through situations that should be thoroughly damaging. McGonagall should have smacked him down a dozen times over. Lucious Malfoy, a man who was shown to have no problem killing children and even beating his own son, let a serious slight from Harry pass.

         Ultimately, Eli missed the whole point of fan-fiction. Fan fiction is an exploration of an author’s world and characters. In Rowling’s stories, Harry Potter is distinctly more interested in practice than theory. There are many advanced classes dealing with magical theory that Hermione takes but Harry does not. There is also evidence of Enlightenment-style institutions; the wizarding world has a popularly elected representative government, publicly financed educational structure, and research societies. This at least implies that there already is a structure in place for systematic investigation of magic and the protagonist is merely unfamiliar with it. Further, Eli failed to continue the style of Rowling’s work. Rowling’s work is based around the metaphor of puberty as magic. The main characters are children who’s view of the world grows and changes along with them. Indeed, the complexity of the plot, as well as the sophistication of the narrative, increases with the age of the characters, and also readers. Finally, the author did not tailor his premise, reason in the face of magic, to Rowling’s setting. He instead altered Rowling’s setting to suit his premise. You can either alter the setting or alter the premise, but not both. Otherwise, what relation to the original work is there other than some character and place names?

         The characters are not themselves. Harry Potter is exchanged for an idealized avatar of the author. The setting and premise of the story are altered to the point of making the world unrecognizable f not for the naming continuity. These are rather neophyte mistakes in the realm of fan-fiction. Their presence in this story makes the work of very poor quality. The only reason to like this story is if it adheres to one’s preconceived biases. The story could be made a great deal better if these problems were corrected with a re-write — something a published author should be well familiar with already. While the premise of the fanfic is intriguing, it’s execution is lacking.

         1. “The problem is Eli, being a White, cis-gendered, middle-class, heterosexual male comes from a position of privilege.”

            Seriously? LOL, you win the Special Olympics!

         2. Three years too late…

3. I haven’t gotten very far, but so far, it’s quite funny. I do object to the Bayesianism of Chapter 2 and to the suggestion that if magic were real, then everything a precocious ten-year-old believes would be false (even in the HP world, the earth is still a globe, geography is mostly the same, the Prime Minister is still the same guy, 2 + 2 still equals 4, the heart still pumps blood, some people are still good and others still evil, etc., etc., etc.). But yeah, pretty good fanfic!

   1. As I’ve continued reading (it’s a bit up and down, but still overall pretty good), it’s obvious that the author understands that not everything Harry knew before exposure to magic will be false. If anything, Harry continues to believe in and rely on his pre-magic knowledge too much. He assumes too much continuity between real and magical worlds. It is a little odd that the author doesn’t recognize the internal tension here, since he is so good about so much.

4. May be easier to read using the pdf. Also check out the author’s blog which is more in the nature of a group forum these days. The group itself is the smartest and best behaved community I have yet found online. And their long-term mission probably the weirdest. As you learn a bit about the author you will guess where he got the model for his fictional Harry Potter.

5. I have to say that the Harry Potter stories perpetually disappointed me by their lack of a coherent metaphysics of magic. My impulse to understand how things work (even in fiction) only led to frustration.

   Perhaps I’ll find this series more satisfying. I have to say that I found this exchange extremely amusing:

   “She could be in on it too,” Harry observed.

   “No,” quavered the old man. “She’s right. You have your mother’s eyes.”

   “Hmm,” Harry frowned. “I suppose you could be in on it too -“

6. The conceit is very appealing; I think the author captured me with Harry asking if the spell words were made up by preschoolers.

   Perplexed, thanks for the pdf link. I anxiously await learning whether the author addresses my two most vexing questions. (Is Magical Great Britain populous enough to sustain a sizable government, or so small that its only known school has perhaps 500 students? How do magicians live in the Muggle world so much that the Ministry has a London street entrance and remain so ignorant they require Muggle Studies?)

   1. I don’t know how familiar you are with British government. In the books, the government of the wizarding Britain is treated as a specialized subset of the British government. The Ministry of Magic is treated as a Ministry in the British government with a great deal of independence. From the scenes with the Prime Minister in the sixth book, it can be deduced that sometime in the past a secret agreement was reached with the Muggle government and subsequent PMs are made aware of the wizarding world’s existence.

      Also, wizards are routinely shown to live well past 100. If we give the average life expectancy of a wizard as 140, the population of wizarding Britain could be much higher than it’s population of children implies. By my figuring, if the child population of wizarding Britain is 12% of the total population, with around 5% attending Hogwarts, then the total population of wizarding Britain is a bit less than 8,000; around 12-13 per 100,000 British are wizards. That’s large enough for a self-sufficient society, especially given the labor-saving advantages of magic. The non-human population of wizarding Britain must be considered also. Goblins handle most of the financial sector as well as some manufacturing. House elves do a large part of the domestic chores. The place of Centaurs and Hags in the society was less remarked on than the other species of wizarding species.

7. Gah, software apparently has maximum level of replies allowed. Putting reply to Jonathan’s latest comment here.

   The problem is Eli, being a White, cis-gendered, middle-class, heterosexual male comes from a position of privilege. One of the main privileges afforded him is that he has never had to actually confront an actual racist. It shows. Not only do racists not abandon their prejudices when they are confronted with reason, they don’t even question them.

   Multiple problems with this. First of all, regarding Eliezer’s background, he’s an Askenazic Jew. While in the United States (where Eliezer resides) Jews are one of the better treated minority groups the notion that there’s no prejudice against them is deeply incorrect. Moreover, Eliezer grew up in an Orthodox setting so he encountered irrational prejudice not directed at himself but rather seeing it as part of his own group directed outwards (this is not by any means a universal problem among Orthodox Jews but it is a common one. For example, Chabadniks believe that Jews have an extra holy soul that non-Jews do not. Eliezer has mentioned this before and is definitely aware of it.) The problem here is a little more subtle and has not much to do with racism but rather is connected to a more general problem that he has: He underestimates how easy it is to convince irrational people of rational claims. But it isn’t implausible that a young, still fairly innocent (in some ways) child like Draco might be more easily convinced than a hard set adult. And even then, the level that Draco has been convinced doesn’t seem very high. Look at the exchange about belief-in-belief and Harry’s later remark to Dumbledore about how he tricked Draco into thinking he believed something.
   Ultimately, Eli missed the whole point of fan-fiction. Fan fiction is an exploration of an author’s world and characters. In Rowling’s stories, Harry Potter is distinctly more interested in practice than theory. There are many advanced classes dealing with magical theory that Hermione takes but Harry does not.

   Right, and this version of Harry isn’t that Harry. This Harry had a very different upbringing and is possibly smarter than canon Harry. Since this is one of the branching points I fail to see the relevance.

   There is also evidence of Enlightenment-style institutions; the wizarding world has a popularly elected representative government, publicly financed educational structure, and research societies.

   Partially correct. We don’t know how the ministers are elected in the wizarding world. We never actually see an election. This fits into the more general problem that Rowling’s world doesn’t have a very filled out or consistent mythos. The latter two points about education and research seem potentially more valid. I suspect that Yudkowsky would respond in regards to research societies by arguing that if one doesn’t have any good understanding of how to do research then that might not help matters.

   Regarding your claim that Harry either represents a Mary Sue or represents an inserted version of Yudkowsky, neither is accurate. It seems if anything that Harry to some extent represents a young version of Yudkowsky whom Yudkowsky does not like and sees as highly flawed (indeed he has multiple essays about all the things he did wrong or thought wrong as a young kid). The section with the Sorting Hat seems to almost be an older Yudkowsky talking to younger version. So the notion that this character is a Mary Sue seems pretty far off. Moreover, he sometimes simply fails. Look at his efforts in regards to transfiguration initially or how he looses the various battles or how he screws up with the Time Turner. HJPEV is a more powerful character than canon Harry but he’s far from a Mary Sue.

   Much of the rest of what you have seems to be talking about what “fanfic” “should” be which seems to be essentially subjective claims being disguises as objective remarks. I don’t know of any useful way to interact with such claims.

   1. Gah, software apparently has maximum level of replies allowed. Putting reply to Jonathan’s latest comment here.

      Proper netiquette is to reply to th enext higest post in the nested stack. That way your reply appears near the rest of the conversation of the page.

      Multiple problems with this. First of all, regarding Eliezer’s background, he’s an Askenazic Jew.

      In post-war America, Jews became White. You might want to read the book Becoming White for an more in depth analysis of this social phenomenon. In the mean time, I suggest you don’t argue racial theory with me without at least perusing some blogs on the subject like Stuff White People Do or Racialicious. You’ll also note that I didn’t mention religion as I figured Eli was an atheist.

      Right, and this version of Harry isn’t that Harry. This Harry had a very different upbringing and is possibly smarter than canon Harry. Since this is one of the branching points I fail to see the relevance.

      Now, to repeat myself:
      I understand that this is an alternate timeline fanfic. I don’t really want to get into a nature versus nurture debate either. But if you’re going to strip every personality trait from a character, what point is served by still calling him “Harry Potter”? Why not call him Eli?

      Partially correct. We don’t know how the ministers are elected in the wizarding world. We never actually see an election. This fits into the more general problem that Rowling’s world doesn’t have a very filled out or consistent mythos.

      From Harry Potter and The Deathly Hallows:
      “My dear Prime Minister, you can’t honestly think I’m still Minister of Magic after all this? I was sacked three days ago! The whole Wizarding community has been screaming for my resignation for a fortnight. I’ve never known them so united in my whole term of office!” said Fudge, with a brave attempt at a smile.

      That sounds like a recall election. Pretty standard when compared to a representative parliamentary democracy; the same sort of system Britain is governed under. Further, it is mentioned elsewhere in the series that the MoM dates back to the English Civil War. The social structure of wizarding Britain isn’t made explicit in most cases. However, most everything you could want to know about the major institutions are implied through the narrative.

      I suspect that Yudkowsky would respond in regards to research societies by arguing that if one doesn’t have any good understanding of how to do research then that might not help matters.

      The scenes in the Department of Mysteries in Harry Potter and The Order of The Phoenix described scenery reminiscent of the Royal Society. This is meant to imply that the wizarding world carries on systematic research akin to the post-Enlightenment Muggle world.

      Regarding your claim that Harry either represents a Mary Sue or represents an inserted version of Yudkowsky, neither is accurate. It seems if anything that Harry to some extent represents a young version of Yudkowsky[…]

      No, Eli didn’t turn Harry into a version of himself. He turned Harry into an inserted version of himself at the age Harry is in the story! That’s a completely different thing for special-magic-lucky reasons.

      As for whether this version of Harry Potter is a Marry Sue, I would quote this passage from the relevant TV Tropes article:

      She’s exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her “flaws” are obviously meant to be endearing.

      A Mary Sue can have flaws. They just aren’t flaws that negatively affect them in a serious, detrimental, or obstructive manner. If they drink, they’re an entirely functional alcoholic without any of the personality traits associated with addiction. If they have a short temper, they don’t end up on the wrong side of authority figures or in jail. If they’re clumsy, they aren’t clumsy when they have to, say, catch a thrown object in order to save the day. So it doesn’t matter if Harry did poorly at Transfiguration to begin with. He later rocked it, which is perfectly in accordance with a Mary Sue. I mean, the fact that a first-year even had a time turner is evidence of a Mary Sue.

      Much of the rest of what you have seems to be talking about what “fanfic” “should” be which seems to be essentially subjective claims being disguises as objective remarks.

      There are some things you have to do to your story in order to make it a good story; there are some things you have to do to your story on top of that to make it good fanfiction. A story is defined by two things. The premise that drives the narrative and the setting where the premise is carried out. Fanfiction is the art of altering one of those two things in an examination of the original author’s work. If you alter both the premise and the setting of a story, you are no longer writing about that story. So if you change the setting, you have to be careful to keep the premise. If you change the premise, as Eli did, you have to be careful to keep the setting the same. Eli changed the premise, then changed the setting to suit his premise. Which left nothing but character and place names in common with the source material.

      Harry Potter and The Methods of Rationality is, in the end nothing more than naked, unjustified egoism on the part of it’s author. That’s not a good fanfic. It’s just derivative crap.

      1. > In post-war America, Jews became White. You might want to read the book Becoming White for an more in depth analysis of this social phenomenon. In the mean time, I suggest you don’t argue racial theory with me without at least perusing some blogs on the subject like Stuff White People Do or Racialicious. You’ll also note that I didn’t mention religion as I figured Eli was an atheist.

         You’re either missing my point or are confused about how the religion and ethnicity interact in Judaism. I’ll to be more explicit: Eliezer comes from a background religion where for theological reasons many people have what amounts to racist beliefs about non-Jews. Given his upbringing it is extremely unlikely that he didn’t interact with people who were vocal about those beliefs. He’s even touched upon on this issue in stuff he has discussed. The fact that Eliezer is himself an atheist is irrelevant. The relevant point is that he’s interacted with severe racists. You might want to read up on the complicated interaction between race,culture and ethnicity that surrounds being Jewish as well as read some of the relevant texts such as the Tanya which gives an (unfortunately still timely) summary of many Lubavitch beliefs, many of which are not uncommon among other Orthodox Jews.

         You’re question about the name of the character also misses the point: The character isn’t named Eli or Eliezer because he’s not Eliezer. He’s Harry Potter with a different upbringing. And yes, that changes his personality a lot.

         As to your sarcastic remark that the use of aspects of the young Eli is a “completely different thing for special-magic-lucky reasons” I’m not at all sure what universe you reside in where authors aren’t allowed to use personality elements of themselves or people they know. In this case, the character has elements of Eliezer’s young self, but that’s not the same thing as being an insert. Many commentators think that Prospero in the Tempest is a Shakespeare-insert. That doesn’t make the character somehow problematic by itself. What you do with the character matters.

         As to whether HJPEV’s flaws matter- I have to wonder if we’re reading the same story. At this point, his flaws have alienated a major ally (Snape) who may have actively joined evil as a result of HJPEV actions, and Harry has fallen under the influence of the Dark Lord without realizing it. These are not minor consequences of his flaws.

         As to your claims about changing the premise and the setting- reality is an intertwined aspect. If one changed things fifty years before and say had had Dumbledore die in a battle with Grindelwald and then looked at what would happen as a result later would that be a change to the setting or the premise? If it were a change to both would such a work not be able to be fanfic? Let me tentatively suggest that there may be different degrees of change one can engage in. Some changes are small (say giving Lilly a different color eyes) some are major (Neville is the chosen one not Harry) and some are so extreme as to be outright ridiculous (see for My Immortal for the extreme end of that spectrum). What should matters is not change only around a single axis but that the total amount of change is not too large and that the change happens in a consistent fashion in a way that keeps the work interesting. Indeed, if Yudkowsky had just made rationalist Harry and hadn’t modified anything else about the setting the entire fanfic would be dull. Yudkowsky has explained this in detail (see among other things the first of the outakes where he imagines what would happen if HJPEV had the same problem as canon Harry with his scar hurting).

      2. Also, after thinking about this a bit more I think you’ve made good cases that many aspects of the magical society as described by JKR magic does have substantial post-Englightenment aspects. The government does look representative (the passage you point seems close to slam dunk for it) and as you point out there are actual research societies and magical journals. That’s not intrisicially inconsistent with what Yudkowsky has portrayed but it does seem that he’s reduced the level of Enlightenment thinking in the magical world in his version of the Harry Potter universe compared to canon.

         1. I like the series largely because of the internal consistency on the characters’ motivation, rather than the portrayal of the society as such. After all, our own, actual, society can be portrayed in a number of lights, some Enlightened, some positively barbaric. I would hesitate to call ours society an Enlightenment society at any time since the actual Aufklärung itself.

            Harry comes across as a high function Asperger’s, with the usual obsessive behaviours. Possibly the right environment triggered it where the abusive situation with the Dudley’s repressed it, although the canonical Harry always seemed to damned good for the situation in which he was raised – JKR no doubt wanted to encourage abused kids to be good rather than “realistically” (odd word to use in this context) showing what happens to such kids.

            I very much like this Harry, despite his rational egoism attempts and tendency to socipathy, compared to the wet noodle of JKR’s devising.

8. Ok. I’m going to just give up on formatting now. Seem to have messed things up badly. Sorry about that.

   I fixed it: JSW

9. It is awesome!

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