One of the more annoying claims some people make is that atheists are or can be fundamentalists. This is annoying for two reasons: one is that atheists rarely go out and picket funerals or insist on what people can do in their own bedrooms based on a literal reading of Voltaire or Hume. The other is that it implies that atheism is like a religion or ideology. In an otherwise balanced article that takes issue with the first point, u n d e r v e r s e inadvertently adopts the latter position.
He [Chris Schoen] writes:
…, the fact that one of the major fault lines today between theism and atheism is “al-Darwinia” is a red herring. The real reason that atheists are supposed to be incapable of fundamentalism is because the values of the Enlightenment (not atheism per se, but its wellspring) are a hedge against intolerance. But this proposition was falsified long before Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot (who massacred, it is true, not “in the name” of atheism, but instead in the name of a putatively scientific ability to engender political and economic fairness at the point of a sword) in the terror of Robespierre. The brigades of the eminently rationalist and vehemently atheist “al-Jacobin” and “al-Marx” were all too numerous and all too real.
And so far as I can tell, none of them, including Pol Pot, Stalin or Mao acted positively in the “name” of atheism. They instead acted on the basis of various degrees of Marxism, antimodernism or modernism, and nationalism. So they are excellent moral lessons against these ideologies; just not atheism. As the author knows well, atheism is not an ideology; there are many atheist ideologies, such as freethinking, liberal secularism, Marxisms, libertarianisms, and so on, but being atheist is at the least a side effect of the overall ideology itself, and at most is a doctrine of the ideology. There are also Christian versions of these same ideologies; and likewise also of the use of scientific reasoning in various ways.
I agree with the author that many traditions that take their origins from the Enlightenment hold, usually without a lot of evidence to back it up, that they are immune from overall error because they are skeptical, or scientific, or whatever, but that doesn’t license the conclusion that all Enlightenment rationalism is liable to become extremist or do horrible things.
The claim that atheism has led to bad things, or that it can be “fundamentalist” is to reiterate the falsehood that atheism is a religion, an ideology. It is not. It consists in a single “doctrine”: there is no god. All else, ranging from politics to culture to metaphysics or even ethics, are entirely open. There is no atheist line other than “there is no god”. It’s very hard to be “fundamentalist” about a single declarative sentence.
What those who claim atheism is a religion mean to say is that they object to modernism, to Enlightenment ideals ranging from the sufficiency of reason through to egalitarianism. They dislike some or all aspects of various things, which are sometimes (not always) concomitant with atheist views. And yes, some of those who take those lines can be strong about it; they can be assertive or even aggressive, nearly as much as the real fundamentalists of religion. If there were a society based on Enlightenment ideals, I have no doubt that there would arise those who were exclusively committed to some set of views, which may or may not include the single sentence “there is no god”, but the fundamentalism that would result would be nationalist, or Marxist or libertarian or whatever. It can’t be “atheist”, because it’s a belief that has one fairly unequivocal proposition, and you either think it is true or you do not.
The problem that u n d e r v e r s e has is that he thinks that opposing theism is a set of values, a set of beliefs, and sure, some atheists have constructed a viewpoint that might be called a worldview, although personally I don’t think taking science seriously is a worldview so much as damned good sense. But this is in virtue of a set of what philosophers call doxastic attitudes, such as a healthy skepticism, a reliance on empirical data, and on fundamental rules of reasoning. It is, if you like, a fundamentalism of reasoning. It is not because they are atheists; in fact they are usually atheists because they have the doxastic and epistemic commitments they do.
But there are many paths to atheism. Some rely on the Enlightenment. Some rely on experience of bad religion. Some rely just on a desire to get on with life. One cannot be fundamentalist about something that lacks any overall coherent set of beliefs. I hope this is clear now.
Incidentally, I write this as an agnostic, as I have many times said before. If atheist fundamentalism is a contradiction in terms, agnostic fundamentalism is like the old joke about the Unitarian KKK: they burn a question mark in your lawn. It’s hard to be fundamentalist about the belief that a question makes no sense, even more than about a single sentence. So stop talking about atheist fundamentalism and name the actual targets you have in mind, and deal with them as they are, and not in terms of some bogeyman.




Semantics.
I believe there is no god. Look, I now have a tenet. I’m adhering to it. I’m a fundamentalist.
Seriously, though, my point is that being a fundamental atheist is not a negative. I concede that the use of the words by theists (or deists, or supernaturalists or whatever those that don’t believe what I believe are called) are an attempt to denigrate critics of religion.
Atheists are the backbone of the Brights organization. allowing other ists was just a savvy political move. The actual fault in my using them as an example is that the organization is more about PR for secularists then it is about PR for secularism. They (we, actually. I’m a member) as a group are not the best example of fundamentalism.
PS-Thony sorry about the typos on the word principles. I guess I’m not a spelling fundamentalist. Or much of a proof reader.
And, of course, communism is a clssic religion:
The “communist” states are classic theocracies.
They have “holy books” which are an infallible guide.
The “holy predictions” are also infallible, and so is the church (the Party) even when it is manifestly not so.
[ The classic, of course is that "the revolution" will occur in the MOST DEVELOPED states FIRST ... ]
They persecute, with equal vigour, heretics (that is, believers in other forms of communism) and believers in other, competing religions.
At one point, they even joined christianity and islam in rejecting a central foundation of modern biology: have you ever heard of Trofim Lysenko?
They kill thousands/millions of unbelievers and “evil” people, in order to bring a perfect world about…
In short, the whole thing is modelled on the mediaeval RC church ……
The ultimate classic of a communist theocracy is, of course, North Korea, where the hereditary god-kings of the Kim family rule over their religiously terrorised subjects.
Furthermore, communism isn’t intrinsically atheist; it is (just) that the theocrats/ideologues saw (and still see) all the other religions as competitors with their own holy cause, and adopted “atheism” as a convenient stalking horse for persecution.
Atheism doesn’t lead to communism, nor even vice versa – you are pointing to a correlation but there is no underlying causation until you examine the interesting dynamics of a secular evangelical religion with a big god-shaped hole in it. Which is filled by the infallible Party.
Yes. As I recall this was Barth’s and Thielicke’s objection to the communist state.
Greg. Tingey wrote:
If I remember correctly, we have been over this ground before.
My view is that the problem is not atheism or religious fundamentalism. Both camps happily commit the fallacy of guilt by association by tallying the number of lives taken in the name of the opposition as evidence of their irredeemable evil. What is not fallacious is that large numbers of people have been killed by adherents of various faiths or ideologies.
The problem, as I see it, is rather what I call ‘ultimatism’, which is defined as the belief that one is in possession of some Ultimate Truth that, by its nature, licenses behaviour which is prohibited by conventional morality. (John’s vocabulary, as a philosopher, probably contains a larger stock of ‘isms’ so he might know of a better word) We can see this, for example, in Christians who will be as appalled as the rest of us by the Holocaust but will, nonetheless, defend the Biblical Flood as just and deserved punishment, even though, if it had occurred, it could have killed far more than the Nazis.
Agnostics, as a rule, do not fly planes into skyscrapers or send people to gulags for not doubting enough.
Wonder if it was a bunch of atheists that burned down Sarah Palin’s church?
Can atheists COEXIST with people of faith without being vulgar and inflammatory?
It’s not like an atheist can be content with their reluctance in believing God, they have to go out and engage in a daily assault on organized religion (namely Christianity). There is a fervor to tear down and shatter the beliefs of every God-fearing person in the world.
Atheists drive around in their Prius’ with “coexist” bumper stickers. But I have to wonder if they really want “coexist” or not..
Oh you poor boy. However will you cope with being a member of the 80% majority that sets the rules for everyone else. I don’t know how you can bear it.